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Most football fans will agree that great defending is an art form in its own right. From Terry Butchers tackle on Jairzinho to Stam on Ginola, these great defensive moments stay with us for just as long as any wonder goal or superb skill. Great tacklers require excellent timing, skill and the ability to read their opponent. But how does FIFA 11’s tackling system stand up to the real world equivalent?
The tackling mechanics used in FIFA 11 are in a word, primitive and I’m being pretty kind. As a defender you have just two options available to you, standing tackle or slide tackle. Two buttons which you can unceremoniously bash until your hearts content tackling opponents at will. That I’m afraid about sums it up.
On the flip side if you take a look at the options available to FIFA 11’s cast of attacking players things are much more varied. They can use normal dribble, skilled dribble or the huge armoury of skill moves and feints available via the trick stick. Straight away you can see the massive imbalance there and it’s a clear sign that the art of defending is being badly neglected by EA.
As well as the number of options there’s also a huge contrast in the amount of user input and skill required to be proficient in each area. Performing some of the most difficult attacking tricks successfully in one flowing movement takes real skill and timing. Whereas making the perfect tackle simply requires a working thumb.
This isn’t solely FIFA 11’s fault though. The one button tackle mechanic has been the industry standard since football gaming began. It’s a very comfortable design choice which EA haven’t ever really pushed or innovated. But this kind of primitive defensive design is aging fast and for a high profile market leader like FIFA 11 we should expect much more.
FIFA 11’s problems aren’t just down to the “one button” tackle mechanic though, it’s probably more about the complete disregard for user skill and timing. All you need to do is hammer the tackle button repeatedly until an unsuspecting forward comes in to range. Then you just sit back and watch as your defender leaps in to steal the ball with consummate ease. This gives tackling the sensation of complete automation and dare I say a “scripted” feel. There’s no bearing at all on when you push the button or your position its all about the percentages.
Personally I’m of the opinion that if you press the tackle button your player should do a basic tackle animation regardless. That would in an instant stop people mindlessly button bashing standing tackle and wrongly reaping the rewards. If you press the button too early you’re easily bypassed, too late and you commit a foul but at least that variance in user input is there for all to see.
If you take a look at what PES has done with its tackling engine this year then it makes FIFA11′s system look very archaic indeed. To tackle in PES you need to jockey and then push the analogue stick towards the player to time a tackle. It’s wonderful in its simplicity and ticks the crucial tackling boxes, timing and skill. It also loosely mimics the actual animation itself ie sticking a leg out. I’m not for a second suggesting that EA just rip this system off but the theory is something they must take on board.
Having a powerful tackling engine in FIFA 11 has also bred a high pressure culture amongst the community. I mean why stand off and be considered when you can leap in and take the ball a few seconds earlier? Over time we seem to have built up a reliance on the tackling engine meaning we no longer worry about our positioning or the situation because we know the magical tackle button will bail us out. Changing this mindset is a huge task which in my opinion can only be fixed with a radical overhaul of how we tackle in FIFA 11.
On a positive note where EA have tackling nailed is in the animation department. The multiple tackle animations are a joy to watch at times, especially when players have the “aggressive tackler” trait assigned to them. Such a wonderful and adaptive animation engine deserves so much more than the “auto tackle” responses it currently gets. Tackling has fantastic style but lacks sufficient substance to make the excellent animations credible.
EA get a lot of grief for either not delivering enough or not delivering at all but in tackling they have something they can really make a difference with. EA have shown their willingness to go back and deal with the games fundamental problems in recent history (Pro Passing, Personality+) and now its time to move on to perhaps the most important and most neglected gameplay mechanic, tackling.
The frustration overpowered tackling creates in FIFA 11 is unrivalled for me and sorting it out has to be high on EA’s priorities for next year. Great tackling should require timing, user input and good defensive positioning not just one button and the game doing the rest. The controls need to be intuitive, responsive and comfortable to use as well. Tackling needs an overhaul I’m afraid and it can’t come soon enough, the beautiful animations deserve it|||100% agreed, tackling is too easy too many people just press the whole game, its frustrating.|||
Agree with anything that tackles (no pun intended) the issue of defending in FIFA. There is definitely still an imbalance.
For me at least, taking away the automatic tackle and replacing it with one of the unused buttons on the controller during defensive situations would be a huge step forward.
a) The user is then responsible for mistimed tackles and therefore cards, free kicks and pens which they may lead to.
b) 'Mind Reading' defenders will be a thing of the past, you can completely * the person controlling the defender as to which way you are going but because you are still in range of the autotackle, the AI will step in and intercept, which leads to my other major problem with defensive AI.
Momentum and Intertia
The defenders seem to have no problem changing direction and reaching almost full acceleration in an instant. There doesn't seem to be any regard for this currently. The only explanation I can find for the way they currently operate is that every defender has been watching the new Ryan Giggs yoga dvd and consequently have become masters at contorting their bodies to reach players who have beaten them with a subtle change in direction and who in normal circumstances would be accelerating away from a player who had made a step in the wrong direction.
All of the above though is overshadowed by the level of continous pressure which can be applied by the simplest of touches, I was hoping that there might have been a slight tweak to the gameplay in this area following the volume of people who were writing/complaining about this pre-patch but I'm assuming that the stat alteration system which was vaunted as a way to tweak the game on the fly between F10 and F11 hasn't been included this year because FLT told us directly that no gameplay changes were made at all in the only patch we have seen so far.
As the bulk of discussion this year seems to have revolved around tackling then I would hope that something is done this year in a similar way to the response from ping pong passing led to Pro Passing this time around.
Riche :)|||It's wonderful to see your great thread again, I have read it on FSB and now I can see it here on Official FIFA Forum, keep up the good work my friend Dave, good luck :)|||
Agree with anything that tackles (no pun intended) the issue of defending in FIFA. There is definitely still an imbalance.
For me at least, taking away the automatic tackle and replacing it with one of the unused buttons on the controller during defensive situations would be a huge step forward.
a) The user is then responsible for mistimed tackles and therefore cards, free kicks and pens which they may lead to.
b) 'Mind Reading' defenders will be a thing of the past, you can completely * the person controlling the defender as to which way you are going but because you are still in range of the autotackle, the AI will step in and intercept, which leads to my other major problem with defensive AI.
I think point a) is the biggest one for me because at the moment if you do on the rare occasion miss-time a tackle its because the game has tackled at that time not necessarily you. The time from when you push the button to when a player tackles isn't instantaneous it happens when someone comes in to range. That's a huge problem because when it comes to tackling well, timing is the key. Like I said in the article having a player perform an animation whenever the button is pressed would stop the spamming of X and force people to time and consider "when" to tackle and when to back off.
Momentum and Intertia
The defenders seem to have no problem changing direction and reaching almost full acceleration in an instant. There doesn't seem to be any regard for this currently. The only explanation I can find for the way they currently operate is that every defender has been watching the new Ryan Giggs yoga dvd and consequently have become masters at contorting their bodies to reach players who have beaten them with a subtle change in direction and who in normal circumstances would be accelerating away from a player who had made a step in the wrong direction.
All of the above though is overshadowed by the level of continous pressure which can be applied by the simplest of touches, I was hoping that there might have been a slight tweak to the gameplay in this area following the volume of people who were writing/complaining about this pre-patch but I'm assuming that the stat alteration system which was vaunted as a way to tweak the game on the fly between F10 and F11 hasn't been included this year because FLT told us directly that no gameplay changes were made at all in the only patch we have seen so far.
As the bulk of discussion this year seems to have revolved around tackling then I would hope that something is done this year in a similar way to the response from ping pong passing led to Pro Passing this time around.
Riche :)
As you say the AI is able to read what we do so fast it gives the feel of scripting and almost being cheated by the AI but that itsn't the case at all the reaction times are just too fast. When you don't have this problem is in multiplayer because you're fooling someone who's bound by the same human reactions as you. Until I actually perform a quick stop and turn I'm the only one that knows when it will happen, your opponent then has to react to what is seen on screen. Getting that timing between seeing something and then reacting physically with a controller is key. At the moment it's way too fast for the AI and needs to be made more human.|||I've noticed that when I play against the AI, the main reason I regain possession is tackling. I would guess 80-90% of the times I win the ball are from tackles. This for me creates a huge focus on the tackling system, because I use it so much in the game, and it really gets me to misuse it as well, spamming the tackles and then getting annoyed that my players doesn't just take the ball when I press X ('cause I'm so used to it).
I have generally thought that most ball-losses occur because of bad/risky passing/crossing in a real match, and this is often the case when I play against a human opponent, but the AI is just too good at hitting great passes, which forces me to tackle too much.
So implementing a harder (or more skillbased) tackle-system, would definitely require the AI opposition to make more bad passes than they do now, to make up for the fewer succesfull tackles a different tackle-system would (initially) introduce.
Another note on the tackling, is what I call 'the tackle-pass'. Loose (or free) balls after a tackle is almost non-existent, and I think it's mainly because the AI 'thinks' faster than humanly possible. In real life (and of course depending on the tacklers skill) after a tackle, the ball goes in a random direction, and then the players adapt to that situation. In the game, before I can adjust to the direction of the ball, the AI has already positioned itself to intercept it (this is both my own team and the opposition). In my opinion a realistic approach would be the players near the ball stopping for a bit to orient themselves, process where the ball is heading and then react to it. Right now the ball is almost always heading towards a player after a tackle. It doesn't feel random.|||
I've noticed that when I play against the AI, the main reason I regain possession is tackling. I would guess 80-90% of the times I win the ball are from tackles. This for me creates a huge focus on the tackling system, because I use it so much in the game, and it really gets me to misuse it as well, spamming the tackles and then getting annoyed that my players doesn't just take the ball when I press X ('cause I'm so used to it).
I have generally thought that most ball-losses occur because of bad/risky passing/crossing in a real match, and this is often the case when I play against a human opponent, but the AI is just too good at hitting great passes, which forces me to tackle too much.
So implementing a harder (or more skillbased) tackle-system, would definitely require the AI opposition to make more bad passes than they do now, to make up for the fewer succesfull tackles a different tackle-system would (initially) introduce.
Another note on the tackling, is what I call 'the tackle-pass'. Loose (or free) balls after a tackle is almost non-existent, and I think it's mainly because the AI 'thinks' faster than humanly possible. In real life (and of course depending on the tacklers skill) after a tackle, the ball goes in a random direction, and then the players adapt to that situation. In the game, before I can adjust to the direction of the ball, the AI has already positioned itself to intercept it (this is both my own team and the opposition). In my opinion a realistic approach would be the players near the ball stopping for a bit to orient themselves, process where the ball is heading and then react to it. Right now the ball is almost always heading towards a player after a tackle. It doesn't feel random.
Agreed with you and with the OP.|||
As you say the AI is able to read what we do so fast it gives the feel of scripting and almost being cheated by the AI but that itsn't the case at all the reaction times are just too fast. When you don't have this problem is in multiplayer because you're fooling someone who's bound by the same human reactions as you. Until I actually perform a quick stop and turn I'm the only one that knows when it will happen, your opponent then has to react to what is seen on screen. Getting that timing between seeing something and then reacting physically with a controller is key. At the moment it's way too fast for the AI and needs to be made more human.
Please EA read this!
It's the biggest problem when playing against the AI.
The AI offense is better than in 09/10 and the single player part is much more fun because of this.
But if you're playing the game on the highest level it's the AI's defense that really takes away all the fun. Like Dave said, even with players like Messi its really hard to do great dribblings because the defenders react so quickly.
Compared to the offense abilitys of the AI the defense is way to strong.
Most Games end 0:0 or 1:0 but alway with the same goals.
As an experienced player its really easy to defend against the AI. But its so hard to do some nice dribblings.|||The computer defends for you, its a total joke that the game tackles you automaticaly. To be good at defence all you have to do is nothing! The only thing you have to do is watch for long through passes and u'l never conceed a goal!
This is my biggest gripe with the game along with the shirt pulling/ barging in the back and massive auto tackle zone. It needs toning way down, as it plays like rugby not football.
EA wanna be careful. At the moment fifa has no true rival, but from what iv seen the old king of football PES will be back in full force next year and I wont be falling for fifa 11 in a fifa 12 packaging.
Gameplay is what matters the most, not stupid gimmiks!|||I loved this article when it was published on FSB and I still love it. One of the more annoying issues I feel like I am constantly dealing with are the occasions when you go to make a tackle, the tackle animation looks clean enough (you get the ball and you do not go through the man), yet the referee calls a foul? This happens ALOT when you pressure the defenders. Many times you can tackle the player cleanly, the cleanest tackle ever made in FIFA history, and the referee gives a foul. Its even worse when you give up a free kick in a dangerous area because of this. It seems that you are at the mercy of the type of animation aka luck of the draw. It would be different if you were given the ability to make the tackle yourself. Say if I was sprinting and my momentum carried me through the player when I hit the "tackle button". Thats never the case now though. You are like a kami-kaze pilot out there running into the player with possession just hoping you can win it cleanly.|||
Please EA read this!
It's the biggest problem when playing against the AI.
The AI offense is better than in 09/10 and the single player part is much more fun because of this.
But if you're playing the game on the highest level it's the AI's defense that really takes away all the fun. Like Dave said, even with players like Messi its really hard to do great dribblings because the defenders react so quickly.
Compared to the offense abilitys of the AI the defense is way to strong.
Most Games end 0:0 or 1:0 but alway with the same goals.
As an experienced player its really easy to defend against the AI. But its so hard to do some nice dribblings.
That for me is the most frustrating bit because personally I play with realism in mind so if I pick the ball up with Scholes I spray passes, Fletcher I play it easy but if I get the ball to Nani I want to run at people and try to beat them and with the current defensive setup you just can't do that.
Now I can dribble with Nani past 2 or 3 of my mates defenders and it feels brilliant so there's only one thing causing this against the AI IMO. Reaction times. Granted when playing ourselves we can be rash sometimes, diving in etc which makes it easy to skip by but as football intelligence goes playing against humans is infinitely more challenging than the current FIFA AI. Yet we can dribble past our mates no problem?
It's almost like EA feel they have to stop the beating of AI defenders or the scores will get too high, I think the quick reactions are hiding pretty poor defensive AI that we would probably rip to shreds even on World Class if the increased reactions times weren't there to bail it out.
Tackling for me is massive because it's so fundamental to football so whilst in this area of the forums there are some fantastic ideas. For me personally the AI defending/tackling issues is still up near the top in terms of importance. Getting the fundamentals of football nailed is so key to a successful FIFA and atm nothing is as poor as defending and tackling in FIFA11.
|||im bumping this good read|||If i was making FIFA 12, tweaking defending - for the AI and human controlled play - would be my number one priority. And it would probably be numbers two and three as well!
IMO, fix the defensive issues with the game and you'll take care of much of FIFA 11's ills. Off the top of my head, a few issues I'd like to see addressed:
- auto-tackle: get rid of it or at least make it an option
- tone-down jockey, both the speed and agility at which a player can move while jockeying. Also, jockey should jockey only, not tackle too.
- properly implement momentum so defenders can't react and respond the way they (unrealistically) currently do.
- tweak tackle animations so not as effective
- make timing a tackle properly important
- ensure players are better bound by the laws of physics
Couldn't agree more with this post. Loved it the first time on the blog. I agree fully with your title but I'd like to take it one step further: bring back the artful side of the sport in general. FIFA currently is a tad too brutal, yet football is known as the beautiful game. Addressing the over powered defensive abilities in FIFA 11 is certainly the right path forward and I cross my fingers in hopes that the devs agree.
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